Ep 60 - Avatar (2009)

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Avatar2009 In a distant future, after squandering their own resources, humans plan on ravaging a distant planet for their super mineral known as Unobtainium. Certainly it should be as easy to obtain as the name implies. And nothing bad could happen when you're literally trying to open a planet named Pandora. Mongoolie's moving madness. It's a sight to behold. [00:00:30] Speaker B: Mongoolie passion for films. Never closer. [00:00:36] Speaker A: From classics to new releases, Let's start the show. [00:00:59] Speaker B: This episode is brought to you by Radique Audio. Radik Audio. Enjoy the music. Hello, everybody and welcome back to our rating the show where I get together with a couple of my buddies, we take a movie franchise, break it down by movie, give it an overall score, and throw it up on the board to see where it lands compared to the other movie franchises. As always, I'm joined by Brian and Will. Brian, how are you doing this week? [00:01:19] Speaker C: I'm great, Dan. How you doing? [00:01:20] Speaker B: Oh, I'm doing fantastic. I'm very curious to get into this one with you guys. How about you, Will? How are you doing this week? [00:01:26] Speaker A: Happy to be here. [00:01:28] Speaker B: Excellent, excellent. Now I'm gonna ask the question I always ask, which is how did you guys come to this movie? But a little bit behind the curtain. This is a movie. I kind of had to twist these guys arms into watching the new movie. Fire and Ash is coming out in a couple of weeks. I wanted to make sure that we were ready for this one. And yeah, this is the first time that I think I've got pushed back on a movie franchise. So Brian is, how did you come to Avatar? [00:01:52] Speaker C: You know what? I was told that this was going to be the greatest movie ever. So naturally I lined up to go see it in theaters, 3D glasses in hand. And then I have never seen it since. And then you guys made me re watch it. So I, you know what, paid attention this time. I took notes. [00:02:12] Speaker B: Hey, took a year and a half, but we got there. What about you, Will? How was your Avatar experience? [00:02:21] Speaker A: Fairly similar. I mean, now I live on Pandora, as you can see, and I brew my own Avatars, but similar experience. I saw the movie in theaters because it was a big hit. And you know, I was told this is a movie you have to see in theaters. And I think that was an accurate statement at the time. But I had zero urge to ever see this movie again. And I still have zero urge to ever see this movie again. Again. [00:02:49] Speaker B: Excellent. Excellent. Yeah, so for me, very similar. At least to start where my brother in law talked this movie up and he's like, you have to go see it. You have to see it in 3D. The 3D is incredible in this movie. And I, me and my wife went. And it was. The 3D in the theater was really solid in this movie. This was around the time when 3D was just starting to get big, I think for the second or maybe third time. And there was a lot of really ham fisted 3D that looked awful in movies, and this one legitimately looked really nice. That being said, I think I've seen it once at home between now and then. This is my third time viewing. It might be my fourth, but I think it's my third time. Definitely a bigger fan than the other two, but we'll have to discuss exactly here and why over the next, I guess, 40 minutes. [00:03:32] Speaker C: Well, I'll give you one. One good reason why. If you can't tell by my background. This story has been tried again and again and again. And I think that Avatar did one of the worst jobs of telling this type of story. Just for instance, I just want to show you, I made a list of just some movies off the top of my head. I wrote these down. Movies that deal with the same themes. That is an outside intruder comes in for their land or whatever, and an outsider rallies the troops to defend the homeland. Okay, similar themes to this. We got Pocahontas, Fern Gully, Dances with Wolves, the Last Samurai, Last of the Mohicans, Lawrence of Arabia, A man called Horse, the Lorax, wind Talkers, District 9, Battle for Terra, the Abyss, how to train your dragon, Braveheart. Even Red dawn has a bunch of kids defending the homeland. This story has been told over and over and over again. And the reason I don't like it in Avatar is because they hide a lot of failures in writing a good story with this over the top cgi. [00:04:37] Speaker B: I mean, I have to hear your list a little bit slower again. I feel like it started off as like a one for one and then it got like real in the weeds. Like, sorry, can you connect how to train your dragon to this one? [00:04:48] Speaker C: Again, for me, he has to get his friends together to defend their homeland. [00:04:55] Speaker B: Okay, so we're just going with defense. Like any movie that has defense. [00:04:59] Speaker C: Just that. But I mean, how to train your dragon was more silly one. But it is. [00:05:03] Speaker B: Okay, I was gonna say, like, I [00:05:04] Speaker C: don't feel like connection there. Like, even Red dawn seems a little bit silly with the Russians attacking or the North Koreans, whichever version you want to go with. Right. But the simple Thing like, like Dances with Wolves or Pocahontas or ferngully Are Samurai too. Yeah, are, are excellent portrayals of this same exact story. Almost a one to one. Well, not Pocahontas. Pocahontas was an absolute disaster because. Because that is not what happened to Pocahontas. And I don't wanna, I don't like that. But aside from that, the stories, this is a, this is a story that has been told again and again and again. And I feel the thing that bothers me the most about Avatar is how successful it was. That's what bothers me about it. [00:05:50] Speaker B: I mean, it's hard to bet against James Cameron. Like he's done many things where people are like, oh, I can't believe you. Even Titanic, when Titanic was first announced, people were super against it. Like, why would you spend that amount of money on a movie? We all know what the story is. Like, that's ridiculous. And of course, obviously it broke box office records. It was one of the most success. It was the most successful movie. [00:06:11] Speaker C: It was a good story, had good characters. [00:06:13] Speaker B: No, I know. I'm just saying, like James Cameron, when he does something, people pay attention. [00:06:18] Speaker C: Absolutely. So why did he let this happen? With such horrible writing, with such hollow characters? I'll just step back. Sorry, get ahead of myself. [00:06:29] Speaker A: He's coming in hot. [00:06:30] Speaker B: He's coming in pretty hot. It's interesting because you hear this movie specifically as being like, oh, it's, it's a retelling, it's a rehash. This is something Hollywood's been doing for decades. Like, this is not new. But for some reason this movie gets the brunt of the ire for it. And other movies that are also successful, that are also rehashes of familiar stories, completely get a pass when it's kind of the same thing where you're just taking a well known story and giving it to a different audience. I'm going to use Hamlet becoming the Lion King. You know what I mean? Like, it's very much the same thing. You're taking a story that everybody kind of knows at least a little bit, rehashing it, changing it up a little bit, but it's the same thing. And people think of that as like a massive classic. They don't. You know what I mean? I'm not saying Avatar is a classic. I am not defending it that hard. It's just one of those things where I'm like, I don't know why this one gets that much hate. [00:07:19] Speaker C: I'm okay with it being this story. It's just that this movie was so incredibly successful at the box office. And I'm not, I never thought to compare, hey, how much did this movie make and how much this movie cost? Maybe that would bring it down on the list of success, I don't know. But this movie was a huge success at the box office. And it bothers me that people think that it's the greatest tale version of this tale ever told, because it's not. It just has a lot of window dressing. [00:07:47] Speaker A: I, I don't disagree with you there, Brian. I do believe this movie rides and dies on the special effects that it brought to the table. And don't get me wrong, it did that amazingly well and justifiably like it should be held up for those aspects. Yeah. But on the other end, I do also believe that the story and character work in this are a travesty. And, and like you said, you, you listed you dozen movies that have the same story and you can bring this right back to basic writing of, you know, there's only ever seven kinds of stories you can tell. But look at this world that we've created with infinite amounts of stories from those seven core ideas. And so I don't think that this specific story is played necessarily, but it feels played in Avatar. And that is my major reason why I only ever watched it once, because it was on the big screen. It was worth watching on the big screen. I don't regret watching it in 3D in 2009 in the theater. I thought, oh, wow, this is a dazzling spectacle of a movie. It was made to be a spectacle. It wasn't made to be a deep story driven character arc masterpiece. And I think James Cameron knew it. I think he was like, you know what, going hard in this direction. This is what's going to sell this movie. Let's do it. The writing, whatever. We'll get through it. [00:09:25] Speaker B: Now correct me if I'm wrong, Will, you have not seen the second movie, Way of Water. Is that correct? [00:09:30] Speaker A: If I had my choice, I would never see it. [00:09:35] Speaker B: Just yes or no. Just yes or no. [00:09:36] Speaker C: It's fine. [00:09:37] Speaker B: Brian, have you seen the second movie? [00:09:38] Speaker C: Yes, I've seen the second movie. [00:09:40] Speaker B: Okay, now I know. [00:09:41] Speaker C: Will, you were correct in your assumption. [00:09:44] Speaker B: Okay, so what if, and I'm not saying it does, but what if this movie is the jumping off point because like he wants to make like eight of these. [00:09:51] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:09:51] Speaker B: If this movie was a jumping off point to make a bigger universe and the universe turned into something interesting, would that give it a bit of a path I'm not saying it does. [00:10:00] Speaker A: No, no, no. [00:10:01] Speaker B: We'll discuss Way of Water next week. [00:10:03] Speaker A: For sure. For sure. So even in that way, I think about the movie itself in the world building. And I actually wasn't happy with that either because if you talk, if you listen to the military guy, he's like, this is the most dangerous place on Earth, whatever, blah, blah, blah. It's just earth with animals that have an additional set of legs on the front quarters. And they're bigger, but, like, they're not that impressive. They just, you know, they're scary because they're big and you're a human and you're small. Aside from that, they all are just like kind of regular. Except for maybe the flying things that are like pterodactyls, but like, you know, we've seen that too. So the world, aside from like the colorfulness of it and, you know, everything glowing and everything that made the 3D pop, the vibrancy of it, that was cool. But it wasn't enough world building for me. And so that doesn't give me hope for the next ones to be able to do that either. Even though. Does that make sense? [00:11:07] Speaker B: No, it makes perfect sense. Yeah, it was. Just had to ask. I will. One quick second. So I'm looking at the top box office. Avatar is the number one movie according to this. And James Cameron has, if I'm not mistaken, three of the top five. Yeah, he's grossing movies of all time. So, like, I get what you're saying. This. The success of this movie definitely outshines the quality of this movie. I'm not gonna deny that at all. [00:11:32] Speaker C: Well, I just don't necessarily have the [00:11:33] Speaker B: vitriol for this movie that you guys do. [00:11:35] Speaker C: Let's. Let's be a little more clear because I. I don't want to say that this movie is terrible through and through. This movie has great quality points and. And like Will said, Cameron leaned into it. He's like, hey, we're going for the look of this thing and we're gonna just pop your eyeballs out of your skull, you know? And he did that just like Will. I saw it in theaters with the 3D glasses and it was amazing. Right? They created technology to make this movie pop more than anything else. It led the way and changed the way film is. Is made, especially in the 3D department. The. The mocap stuff that they did with the characters was just unreal. The behind the scenes stuff is very interesting. A lot of work put into that as far as the storytelling and characters that's what brings it down. But I'm just kind of curious how. How much do they spend on this, Dan? How much. How much do they spend on it compared to how much it made? And, and what does that compare to other movies? Because. [00:12:31] Speaker B: Okay, well, comparing it to other movies will be a bit tough to do [00:12:34] Speaker A: on the fly, but. [00:12:35] Speaker B: But this movie costs about $237 million. [00:12:38] Speaker C: Okay, that's not as much as I thought it was. [00:12:40] Speaker B: $2.9 billion. [00:12:43] Speaker C: Okay, so it's number one on both fronts. It doesn't matter. It just blew it away. [00:12:46] Speaker A: Oh, yeah. [00:12:47] Speaker B: Well, so the budget, I mean, the budget is high for sure, but compared to the. The new Indiana Jones. The new Indiana Jones was like $350 million. And it does not look anywhere close to this good. Right. [00:13:01] Speaker A: I think there's a lot of elements into that though, as well. For sure, the cost of CGI has gone through the roof since 2009 and all these other things that have skewed those numbers, which is unfortunate because a lot of CGI from that past still holds up quite well. And I noticed that in this movie, even not on a huge Imax screen in 3D, it still looks really good. [00:13:25] Speaker C: Yeah. And. [00:13:27] Speaker A: And there's other movies that came out yesterday that don't look as good. Right. [00:13:31] Speaker B: So there was a couple of scenes. Sorry, did I just step on you? No, no, go ahead. Okay. There's a couple of scenes that I was like, oh, that does not look very good. Like the little, the. I don't know how to call them, the black dogs, the little hyena looking. Things were awful looking. And the one scene where he gets separated from his crew and gets like, hunted by a. I don't know, a hammerhead rhinoceros. I don't know what you want to call that. Like, that looked so incredibly flat. Like everything about that scene looked awful. But then there's a lot of other scenes where I'm like, this looks pretty good for almost 20 years later. Like, it. It. A lot of this movie held up. I won't say all of it did from a visual perspective, but a lot of it did. And I was. I was pretty happy with the look of this. I was watching this on my 65 inch OLED. And then I've got like the, the. The LED lights around the rim of it that like, reacts to what you're seeing. So it's like with a movie this colorful and this pretty, like, it was just kind of lighting up the room. And I was like, this is all right. I'M good with this. [00:14:29] Speaker A: That's what gets you through the movie. [00:14:31] Speaker B: It's like, you're not wrong. This is the definition of a popcorn flick. Like you do just kind of turn your brain off and go with it. Now the one thing, as I said, I think this is my third time going through it, possibly fourth. This was the first time that I really felt the length of this movie. This is what, three hours or just shy three hours? [00:14:51] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:14:52] Speaker B: And like, I don't know exactly what I would cut because I do like most of the scenes where he's like learning about the world and figuring out the animals and whatnot, like, those don't bother me. But at the same time, there was a point where I paused the mood to go to the bathroom. Like, holy crap, there's still an hour and 40 to go. Like, what? There's a whole other movie to go and I've already finished a movie. [00:15:13] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's long. It is long again. And for such a relatively well known kind of simple story, I mean, it's not simple, but like you can, you can get through it a little quicker. [00:15:28] Speaker B: Sure. [00:15:29] Speaker C: I don't know what they would cut out though. [00:15:31] Speaker B: Exactly. [00:15:32] Speaker C: Yeah, the things, the things that slowed down for me were when they were having one on one, especially with human interactions. Not the wanabi or whatever, the creature. Let's Navi. Okay, Navi. I'll try and get that right from now on. Sorry, I just don't want to commit that to memory. So the Navi are talking. Those seemed fairly interesting and, and those characters had heart and they were, they, they cared about their land and they had emotion and they showed it and everything. Pretty one dimensional characters. Still when the humans were talking at the human base and they were mild, especially. Oh my God, the Commander Scarface, whatever his name is, he was the most hollow, just, just on the nose character I have seen in ages. And every time he opened his mouth, I was rolling my eyes. [00:16:22] Speaker B: Every living thing that crawls, flies or squats in a mud wants to kill you and eat your eyes for jujubes. [00:16:30] Speaker C: Every time somebody's like, yeah, fire another missile as they drink from their coffee cup, I'm like, this is so cliche. And I, I just wanted those sequences to be over. But you couldn't cut those because that's the part of the movie that's progressing. The antagonist. [00:16:46] Speaker A: Yeah, it's, it's funny you say that because we all love, you know, those 80 action flicks like Predator and Terminator that have characters just like him. [00:16:56] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:16:56] Speaker A: But he's so in the 80s in this movie. And they just don't mesh at all. [00:17:03] Speaker C: Exactly. [00:17:04] Speaker A: It's so funny. [00:17:06] Speaker B: I think when you're watching Predator, like, we're all older, there's a bit of a nostalgia that goes with it. So you're seeing characters like that who were, I don't know, maybe a little bit fresher back then, or you were younger when you were watching them, something like that, so you give them a little bit more of a pass. But when you're watching this, like, we're all adults when this came out, it's like, oh, that. That just doesn't quite jive as well. I did like his look. I'll give him that. Like the. The military guy with the giant scars on his face. Like, I didn't have an issue with that. But I do agree, pretty much every line out of his face was just the most stereotypical. Rah, rah. I'm an evil. You can be without straight up saying, like, I'm evil. But it's like, okay, yeah, okay. [00:17:45] Speaker C: I think the difference is, like, you watch Schwarzenegger and Predator 1. He has eye rolling, terrible lines in that movie also. But for some reason, when he throws the knife into the guy's chest and says, stick around, I'm laughing and thinking, that's great. I don't know why, but everything this guy in the movie said just. It just frustrated me. And I really do think it's a bias because I see the poor quality storytelling and character building in this film, and I compare that to how much it grossed at the box office, and I'm just like, hey, humans, we have to stop going and watching bad movies. We have to, like, stand up and say, no. We want quality storytelling, not just glitter and. And effects. You know, I've ranted about that all [00:18:30] Speaker A: too many times, so I'm glad you took that for me. Brian. [00:18:33] Speaker B: This is. Brian, can you remind us about your Jurassic World score? I. I think the difference between Arnold and Stephen Lang in this movie is Arnold is doing it with a smile on his face. No. Like, he's winking at the camera essentially, like, [00:18:50] Speaker A: yeah, yeah, right. [00:18:52] Speaker B: Like Stephen Lang is doing it and he's trying to pull it off. Like he is real person in the real world. It's all over. Nothing's over while I'm breathing. [00:19:01] Speaker C: I kind of hoped you'd say that. [00:19:04] Speaker B: Angel's like, no, no, you're a cartoon, sir. Sorry. [00:19:07] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, it's. That's a tricky one. But it didn't. Didn't hit for Me either. And there's a lot of great actors in this movie, but the writing and the characters themselves just didn't. Didn't lend to any of them. I didn't feel any of them. I didn't care about really anybody. Maybe the Na' Vi more than anybody, because, you know, they're the victims and they are of peace and balance and everything good, you know, like indigenous people. So, like, that's easier to feel good about. But on the other hand, again, I feel like because of the lazy writing and storytelling, they even F that up. Because this white guy saves the day, this whole tribe, right? And at the near the end of the movie where he's like, I see you, and they say that because they're connected or whatever, he doesn't even pay the respects after being. Going through months of learning their culture and becoming one of the Na' Vi people. He doesn't even say it in the Na' Vi tongue. He says it in English. This whole movie should have gone from English to Na' Vi for the lead character. He should have just been speaking navi by the end because he obviously does not agree with what the humans are doing. He is fully committed himself to the navi. Why isn't he not speaking navi? [00:20:27] Speaker C: I can. I can tell you why. [00:20:29] Speaker A: Because people, Audiences are lazy. [00:20:33] Speaker C: Because subtitles would take your eyes away from the special effects. [00:20:36] Speaker A: But there is. There are special. There are subtitles throughout the movie. Anyway. A little bit. [00:20:41] Speaker C: A little bit. But I'm with you. I'm with you, Will. I think. I think that would have shown true cultural adaptation to this white guy. And instead, and. [00:20:49] Speaker A: And let the navi people. Well, it's not even the navi people. In the end, it was the planet that saved the day. Which is weird in itself, but whatever. But he led the charge and he got to, like, ride the flying beast that only rare people could ride. Like, oh, it just bothered me that he had to be the one. It couldn't have been the Na' Vi that figured it out. A way to, you know, turn the tide. He asked the planet to help, not the navi. Like, it was just. [00:21:19] Speaker B: Well, the navi even told him that won't work. [00:21:21] Speaker A: Exactly. [00:21:22] Speaker B: Like, no, that's not how this works, man. You can't do that. And he's like, oh, I gotta try. And it doesn't. [00:21:27] Speaker A: Like, I hate. I hate. I hated all of it. [00:21:30] Speaker C: The planet gave him the nod by putting those little floating dust fairies on his shoulder and staying her hand when she was going to shoot him with the Arrow. [00:21:39] Speaker B: The. [00:21:39] Speaker C: The planet was like, no, I want this white dude to save everybody. That was. Didn't. I don't know why. I don't know why it should have been him. [00:21:47] Speaker B: Why couldn't it have been her? I. Yeah. They didn't really explain anything about what was special about him or what he brought to the table that they didn't. I guess, some knowledge of the humans, like knowing. [00:21:59] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:21:59] Speaker B: Parts of the machines to take down. [00:22:01] Speaker C: He didn't broker a peace treaty or anything. He didn't. He's like, I'm gonna get laid. And then I'll let her know. Because it was all pillow talk. That's really what it was. And then the whole. The tree gets blown up, everybody's dying, and he's like, all right, well, let's go to war. Like, why was. It should have been her. She's on the poster, for crying out loud. [00:22:24] Speaker B: Well, yeah, if you've got Zoe Saldani, you put her on the poster. [00:22:28] Speaker A: Well, kind of, sort of. [00:22:31] Speaker B: Sure. [00:22:33] Speaker C: There was a. [00:22:34] Speaker B: There was no real point where anybody on the human side was listening to peace talks. Like, both Giovanni Robisi and Stephen Lang were like. Stephen Lang was out for blood to begin with. He has like. He wanted to kill them more than he wanted the resources. [00:22:47] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:22:48] Speaker B: One note. [00:22:49] Speaker A: One note. Yeah, 100. [00:22:50] Speaker C: Right. And you had the boss character who was super one dimensional. He comes in, he says, this is Unobtainium. We're going after this. I don't care about anything else. And so you're like, yeah, okay. Dialogue with this is stupid. So it's gonna come down to even with the name. [00:23:06] Speaker A: They call it the Company. They don't even give it a name. It's just the Company. Unattainium. Doesn't make any sense. [00:23:12] Speaker B: Yeah. This was a first draft of a script for sure. [00:23:16] Speaker A: James Cameron. I see. I don't. I don't. I feel bad. We've done the Canadian moment before. James Cameron is a Canadian. He's very talented. He just hasn't. He's really in the lot since 2009. I haven't been thrilled with James Cameron. [00:23:33] Speaker C: Okay. [00:23:33] Speaker A: And this is why this movie going on. I haven't been thrilled with any of his work. [00:23:38] Speaker B: Has he done anything other than avatar since 2000? [00:23:41] Speaker A: Probably not. Probably not. But he's also been an advocate of AI as well, and I hate that too. So get bent, James Cameron. [00:23:51] Speaker B: I think we've got the Canadian corner upset. [00:23:53] Speaker C: Something positive. I want to try and not rag on this too much because there's. There's lots of Good stuff in this movie. Obviously, a movie that makes this much money has to do something, right? We. We could talk endlessly about special effects and all the money that they spent to make it look beautiful. Very few acting moments, very few storytelling moments that I enjoyed. The ones that I did enjoy were a few brief moments with Michelle Rodriguez. But my favorite was probably Sigourney Weaver. She came in. I thought she did a pretty good job. She had a character that had some depth, some reality to her. There were moments where she could have blown up on. On. What's his name, John? You know, Mr. Forgettable White Guy. [00:24:38] Speaker B: Sully. [00:24:39] Speaker C: Jake Sully. Yeah. Okay. She could have blown up on Jake Sully, but instead she takes him out into the jungle. She's playing a chess game with the general. She's trying to. To, you know, manipulate the things in her way and not give anything up. So there was a little bit of depth of storytelling there, but that was kind of it. But Sigourney Weaver, I thought, did a pretty good job. I did not like seeing her as a Na'. Vi. It was a little bit unsettling. For some reason, I didn't mind Jake Sully making the transition. I didn't mind any of the other people making the transition to becoming a Na'. Vi, but for some reason, watching Sigourney Weaver as a Na' Vi was just weird. [00:25:15] Speaker A: That's just a weird personal. [00:25:17] Speaker B: Yeah, I was gonna say, like, that didn't bother me personally, but. Okay. [00:25:19] Speaker C: Yeah, that's just me. That was just me. [00:25:21] Speaker B: It's your take. I will say we talk a lot about the visuals of this movie, because that is a huge part of it. But specifically, the scale of this movie I found really intriguing. And what I mean is, like, at the very beginning, when they are mining one of the areas, you can see, like, the. The equipment that they're using. And it is massive. It is bigger than anything I've ever seen on Earth. And something about that just kind of got my imagination going in a fun way. There's the scene where I think Jake first becomes a navi. And he's kind of walking around. You can see how big they are compared to the humans, because most of this movie you see either humans in mech suits in navi, or just navi. There's not a lot of size comparison between the two on screen at the same time. And a little bit you got. I was kind of like, that's. That's a pretty impressive size difference. Sure. They're throwing sticks and, you know, bow and arrows. And stuff. But like they are massive compared to. [00:26:14] Speaker A: They're throwing tree trunks. [00:26:16] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, fair, yeah. [00:26:19] Speaker C: I'm actually a little bit surprised that the avatar didn't develop a video game similar to Starcraft or Warcraft with the characters that they have because you kind of have a variety of sizes of troops on both sides of the battlefield. That would make for an interesting turn based strategy game or some sort of a RTS strategy game. I thought that would be kind of neat, but to my knowledge there's no game out there. If there was, it failed miserably. [00:26:47] Speaker B: My brother in law played like a, like a, I want to say mmo, like an rpg I guess. Like it was kind of based off MMO gameplay, but I don't remember there being an MMO aspect to it. It was kind of like a single player fetch quest game and I was like, this looks awful, like graphically fine, but like why are you doing this? I don't understand. [00:27:06] Speaker A: Money, money, money grab. [00:27:09] Speaker B: Why are you playing it? [00:27:10] Speaker A: Yeah, okay, fair, fair, fair. [00:27:12] Speaker C: They did have lots of interesting units that they put into the battlefield. Those sequences were really cool. The battles, you know, just epic stuff. Explosions, arrows, you know, dragons whipping by. I did think it was strange how they had a. This like spaceship slash bomber with two pallets loaded up with Jimmy Dean sausage that they were gonna push out the back to blow up a tree. [00:27:36] Speaker B: I thought that was a really weird. [00:27:39] Speaker C: It was a weird choice. Yeah, yeah. Like what was these packages of explosive that looked like sausage. Is that kind of weird? [00:27:47] Speaker A: I guess they were. I guess they were hoping the Na' Vi were going to just leave so that they could just plop those things down nice and easy. They didn't have to have any big rig fancy equipment, but they had to improvise. [00:28:03] Speaker B: Well, I was going to say like maybe it's. They didn't bring missiles so much as they brought like stuff that you mining essentially it's repurposed mining equipment. But then they absolutely did bring missiles. [00:28:14] Speaker C: So yes, every time you saw a flying ship of any kind it was so ridiculously overloaded with guns and missiles and bombs. It was, it just looked ridiculous to me. It was so over. Like I think James Cameron. [00:28:29] Speaker B: Hey buddy, go. [00:28:31] Speaker C: I think James. Sorry. Just like I think he saw Fern guy. I think James Cameron just saw these ships and he's like, hey, let's put as many guns on this thing as we can. These characters are one dimensional. We're gonna push that one dimension to the limit. And they did. Those were floating fortresses. I don't Know how they didn't just explode half the planet when they set those things down? [00:28:55] Speaker B: I mean, they. They exploded a lot of the planet in this. I thought a lot of the American military stuff was actually pretty cool. Like, I thought the mechs were actually fairly cool. The gunships were pretty cool. Like the one that Michelle Rodriguez is flying, like the Double Helix helicopter kind of a thing. Yeah, I thought it was pretty sweet. [00:29:10] Speaker A: What's cooler than a man riding in a mech? A man who's able to pull a giant knife out of his mech and use it as a weapon. [00:29:20] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:29:22] Speaker C: I did not like the sound of the mechs, though. Every time the sound moved or the. The mech moved, I heard Ed 209 and I was like, come on, these are sound bites ripped straight from Robocop. And. And they didn't. It. It really kind of took me out. This is the second time through. I didn't notice it the first time. The second time through, I was like, that's ED209 sound effects right there. [00:29:43] Speaker B: That's so interesting you say that. I didn't notice until this time either. All of the monsters on Pandora were 100% dinosaurs from Jurassic Park. [00:29:51] Speaker A: Jurassic Park, 100%. [00:29:54] Speaker B: And I was like, interesting. I don't remember ever catching that before. [00:29:57] Speaker C: Blew the budget on the cameras. Forgot new microphones. [00:30:01] Speaker A: Look over here. Don't mind what we're doing over here. Just look at these flashy lights. [00:30:09] Speaker B: Admittedly, it worked because I didn't notice it until I was going through with a reviewer's eye. Like, it's just a patron. I didn't care whatsoever. I was just. I was just in the movie. But yeah, going through it and being like, I'm trying to pay attention to the music. I'm trying to pay attention to the cinematography. It was like, wait a second, I've heard that before. [00:30:27] Speaker A: Yeah. You know, James Cameron does action well, he's been doing action well for how many years, right? Since Alien 2 or before. Even. [00:30:35] Speaker B: So it was first, wasn't it? [00:30:37] Speaker A: Yeah, I think so. So he knows what he's doing in action sequences and it shows, right? These big action, sweeping scenes. Really fun. You get. I think there was a freaking. What is it? True lies call out when the James or Jake. Jake Sully falls off the. Off the one thing and he's hanging off of the. [00:30:58] Speaker B: Hanging on my. [00:30:59] Speaker A: Yeah, just like Arnie in that movie, right? Like, I think there's a bunch of different call outs that he threw into this just because he likes fun action. And he pulls that Off. So that, that's definitely a. A tick for the good in this movie. If you, if you're in it for the action. There is some good action scenes. They're just a lot of other slower parts of the movie that you have to get through as well. [00:31:23] Speaker B: It's the highest grace grossing movie. It's pretty paper thin. It's fun. I'm sorry, I think it's fun. But like, like we already touched on the acting. It's all okay. We touched on the visuals. They hold up well. [00:31:38] Speaker C: I'll say this, I. One thing that I really don't like about this movie is that they don't capture the idea of metaphorically transitioning to a person that is incorporating what's around you. Metaphorically transitioning into a person that is at peace with nature and cares about their fellow natives or whatever. What they end up doing is literally changing someone into that. They literally call him a traitor to his own people. And he is. And they end up at the end making me feel bad about being a human being. And I didn't like that. It was. It was not well written in the sense that they wanted to showcase how you could improve yourself by taking on the characteristics of this tribe of people. And instead they have someone who completely abandons their kind to become one of them and goes so far as to try and murder people of his own kind. [00:32:34] Speaker B: Doesn't that line up perfectly with the other movies you're talking about? This is stealing from though. Like, isn't that true of FernGully, Pocahontas, dances with Walls, Last Samurai. Like aren't you kind of always. Yes. [00:32:46] Speaker C: Dances With Wolves. It shows him becoming one of those people, but not completely doing a. Well, he's still human. They're both still human in Dances With Wolves. So it's not quite the transition. [00:32:59] Speaker B: No. [00:32:59] Speaker C: In this one he literally ditches his body and becomes one of them and doesn't even look back. And. And they. And because all of the human characters, or most of the human characters are so one dimensionally bad and want to blow up trees throughout the film. It's just too on the nose for me. And it makes me feel bad because I don't know anyone who is that. Hey, let's burn down the rainforests. I want to pave roads everywhere. I don't know anybody who actually thinks like the characters portrayed in this movie. It was just too on the nose and I needed a little more subtlety and I wanted to be able to go, okay, I get the message. And it's a good Message. In this one, there wasn't a message. It was just hit you over the head with a blunt hammer saying, this is what you're bad at and this is what you should be like. And I. I didn't like it. Yeah, this is just bad storytelling, and it's too on the nose for me. And I wanted subtlety. I wanted something that makes you think. And this doesn't make you think this. In fact, this is the opposite of making you think. It makes you turn your brain off to enjoy the spectacle, visuals you see in front of you. And don't worry about the story, because that doesn't matter. And that I really don't like. [00:34:13] Speaker B: There was, like, half a scene when they're blowing up the giant tree where Stephen Lang, the Colonel, is like, yeah, let's go home and get some beer or whatever. And you can see the people in the. The control module, like Giovanni Rubicon, other people. And they do kind of have a look on their face like, oh, crap. [00:34:32] Speaker C: And that girl makes it. She's just like. She's about to break down into tears. Probably some of the best acting in the film. [00:34:38] Speaker B: But then, like, they kind of go from that and be like, oh, crap, what have we done to. Oh, right, money. Yeah, money. Right. Like, right away. [00:34:44] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:34:45] Speaker B: So I agree with you. But I don't know, they kind of explored it a little bit more. [00:34:52] Speaker A: It's possible to have all things in a movie. They just didn't choose to do that in this movie, and it benefited greatly as far as making money. So that's why I have no interest in watching the other avatars, because I feel like they're just gonna continue down that path. Will I be pleasantly surprised? Find out next week. [00:35:15] Speaker B: I've only seen the second one once, but I remember liking it a lot more than this one, so I'm legit curious to go back and watch it again. I'm not saying it's a phenomenal movie. I just remember thinking, like, oh, okay, this is really cool. I will also say I'm a huge fan of the water and scuba diving and stuff like that, so maybe the fact that the entire movie takes place in the water might have helped. [00:35:38] Speaker A: Spoiler alert. [00:35:40] Speaker B: It's called the Way of Water. It's on the poster. The RA Twin 2 is the new flagship Bluetooth adapter brought to you by the fine people at Radique Audio. This tiny but mighty device delivers best in class range and clarity to your music and gives you three versatile modes with which to use it. 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There's a link down below. Thank you very much to our producers as well as our executive producers, Real Bubba, Hotep and Dino, and our writer, Elder JM 990. Thank you so much. [00:38:45] Speaker C: Okay, so I just kind of racked these numbers up while you were going through that Patreon. Dan, this movie does one thing really well, which is a visual spectacle. It wants you to just pull your eyeballs right out of your head so you can see everything from every angle. And it looks really, really good. [00:39:08] Speaker A: Really good. [00:39:09] Speaker C: It looks really good. It's three hours of looking really, really good, which tends to drag on for me. But all of it looked really, really good. Unfortunately, everything else was really, really bad. For me, this movie. This movie comes in at a 56 overall for me, this is a special effects bonanza and had no other redeeming qualities, frankly. So if you're okay with going to a movie that doesn't make a whole lot of sense, doesn't have a great story, maybe even makes you feel bad about yourself overall and. And tells you that everything you've done in your life is wrong, but looks really, really good. This is the film for you, but it's not the film for me. [00:39:51] Speaker B: It's gonna be a little bit hard to follow Brian on that one because while I agree with him, I just had more fun with this than he did. Maybe I was okay at turning my brain off a little bit. Maybe I was, oh, kid. Hating myself a little bit more. I'm not really sure. I think, yes, the movie looks good. We've hit on that quite a bit. The plot is tried and true, but honestly, most movies in Hollywood do that where they just kind of rehash a story to some extent. It's a way of modernizing and it's way of bringing it for A new audience. I watched this with my daughters and they really enjoyed it. And that definitely helped bring my score up a little bit on this one. Because if I can get a fun family night out of it, that's kind of to increase it. That's what movies are all about, is bringing people together. And when I can do that with my family, that is going to raise my enjoyment of this. The sound, we said it borrows a little bit here and there, but for the most part it sounds really good. The cinematics again, looks incredible. The acting, I don't know why exactly they chose Sam Worthington for this role. I don't know that he's done a whole lot else with his career. He's okay. Sigourney Weaver is good. Michelle Rodriguez actually brought a performance that I liked. I'm not usually a big fan of hers, but I did enjoy her in this movie quite a bit. Zoe Saldana did a good job. You don't get a whole lot of Giovanni Ribisi, but again, he's an actor. I enjoy the plot. What can we say? It's. It's tried and true. It's paper thin. It's. It's been done. I don't, I won't say it's paper thin. It's been done, but the enjoyment level on this one is pretty high for me. And even Brian said, like, this is a three hour movie, but I don't know what you cut out of it because it's pretty fun. I don't know. I don't know how to word. I know just saying it's fun over and over again is not the most excess, the most intelligent thing a reviewer can say. But at the end of the day, this movie doesn't blow you away. But it's a good time. I gave this one a 78. [00:41:38] Speaker C: Yes. [00:41:39] Speaker A: As it's been said, this is a spectacle movie. This is like the epitome of spectacle movies. Does it hit as hard nowadays? Not really as much because we have the whole Marvel universe. That CGI city as well, like CGI is kind of just taken over with the spectacle movies at the forefront with the superhero genre just really blasting off and all those things. So it doesn't hit as hard anymore, I don't think. That said, I think the movies are still going to make big money because people remember this as such an event. And it did change the way movies were made moving forward so that impact has meaning. For better, for worse, for better. It revitalized and reimagined what 3D movies could be for worse, we got so many 3D movie slops that it killed my desire to go to the theater at all. Because a lot of times they just forced you into a 3D theater, and I despise that. That's now cooled off, so it's all good now. [00:42:48] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:42:48] Speaker A: What hasn't been said? Nothing. 58 out of 100. Get it out of here. [00:42:55] Speaker B: And with that, Avatar comes in just after Evil Dead, but above Beverly hills. Copy at 63. A little higher. I definitely brought that score up against your guys as well, but. [00:43:08] Speaker C: Yep, yep. No, you give your honest opinion, Dan, and that's what counts. That's what we're here to do, is give our honest opinions of these films, whether we agree or not. We don't. We don't need to agree on this stuff. And I'm happy with this. I'm happy Evil Dead beat it. I'm okay with it being better than Beverly Hills. There was so much money spent on this, so it had to get somewhere. [00:43:30] Speaker B: There you go. It paid for its spot. [00:43:37] Speaker A: Will it climb or will it fall? That's the real question. [00:43:40] Speaker B: I think it'll climb. I don't think it'll climb high enough to pass Evil Dead. [00:43:46] Speaker A: Okay, so you think it'll be marginal marks up? [00:43:49] Speaker B: I think again, I've only seen Avatar 2 once, and obviously none of us have seen Avatar 3. I think the quality of Avatar 2 is higher. So I could see your scores going up from what they are, but I don't think they're gonna like. Your scores for Evil Dead are in the 70s. I don't think your score for this franchise is going to be in the seventies. I just don't. [00:44:05] Speaker A: Right, right, right. [00:44:06] Speaker B: That's fair. All right, so that's our rating of Avatar. What do you guys think? Too high? Too low? Let us know in the comments down below. I'd love to hear what your scores are for this movie. Is this just a CGI fest or was there something a little bit deeper that hit you? I'd love to hear from you. We record this live over at Twitch TV themongoolie show. So head over there and hit the follow button if you want to interact with us live while we're recording this, or if you made it this far in the video, you probably enjoyed it. Hit the like and subscribe buttons that we see you in the next one.